Plaid Cymru, Reform UK clash over foreign spending

Ella Groves – ICNN Senedd Reporter

Comments made by a Reform MS led to a walkout in the Senedd during a debate on the Welsh Government’s international spending.

A Reform motion, calling for an end to all Welsh Government international spending, was rejected by Senedd Members this week.

Wednesday’s plenary opened with Llywydd Huw Irranca-Davies reminding members to mind their language and tone when contributing, following clashes between Reform UK’s Joe Martin and the First Minister in Tuesday’s proceedings.

Mr Irranca-Davies said: “Robust disagreement is part of democratic debate, but it must always be grounded in respect and we must avoid using language that has the potential to inflame debate or to increase tensions.”

The debate was opened by Reform’s shadow minister for finance and government efficiency, Cai Parry-Jones, but it was the contribution made by Caerdydd Penarth MS Joe Martin which sparked the most controversy.

“Stupid ideas”

Announcing to his colleagues that he had “good news”, Mr Martin began his statement by sharing that he had “found the £9 million” needed for Plaid’s “childcare idea”.

However, Mr Martin then added that the “bad news” was to get the money the government would have to stop funding “some of the most pointless schemes known to man”.

One example Mr Martin gave of these so-called “pointless schemes” was a beekeeping scheme in Uganda designed to advance gender equality.

The scheme, run by Bees for Development and their partner organisation, The Uganda National Apiculture Development Organisation, aimed to enhance women’s economic empowerment through beekeeping.

It challenged gender norms in the industry, increasing the visibility of women in technical and policy leaderships roles.

Mr Martin then suggested Wales had won the “Who can find the stupidest use of taxpayer money?” competition because of a scheme supporting tree planting in Uganda.

He said: “We actually asked some Ugandan people what they thought about Wales's scheme to send them money for trees and they said, 'Why are you sending us money for trees?'

“We then asked the same question to some Welsh students who had been through our underfunded education system, but we didn't get a reply because we had e-mailed them and they couldn't read.”

Mr Martin went on to criticise the money spent on mini embassies abroad.

He said: “In India, one of the functions of those mini embassies is to recruit nurses to come and work in our NHS, which is great because it means that the Welsh people who would have otherwise become nurses can instead go on universal credit.”

The Reform MS then added: “I have enquired as to why we can't just have an enormous pit where we burn all the money, but apparently that's not compliant with net zero.”

At this point in Mr Martin’s statement Plaid Cymru’s Zaynub Akbar, of Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf, announced she was going to leave the Siambr.

She said: “I don't accept any of this and I don't want to be a part of it, so I'll be leaving the chamber.”

She was followed by numerous other Senedd Members, including Trefnydd and chief whip Heledd Fychan.

Mr Martin was then reminded by the Llywydd of Senedd rules, which mandate respect in the chamber, before he could continue his contribution.

He concluded his speech to the Senedd by saying: “In Westminster, the Tory party doubled foreign aid whilst imposing austerity. There are now only seven of them in this chamber. The same fate awaits any party that insults taxpayers by frittering money overseas on feel-good vanity projects.

“So, I want to encourage the Party of Wales to be nationalist, to put Wales first. Spend your constituents' money on your constituents. That way, when someone is lying in a hospital corridor and they ask you, 'are you really the Party of Wales?', you'll be able to say 'yes'.”

At the end of the debate, the Llywydd directly addressed Mr Martin calling for him to “reflect” on his remarks and contributions, noting that it was “not in line with [his] expectations”.

Mr Irranca-Davies described it as “particularly disappointing” given the comments he made at the beginning of plenary.

He said: “Going forward, I think we all need to reflect on this and make sure that we comply with our conduct within this chamber and the way we comport ourselves in light of my remarks.”

“Responsibilities”
Welsh Conservative leader Darren Millar expressed his support for the Reform-backed motion, saying it is a debate about where responsibilities lie.

He said: “It's very clear that foreign relations, international development are matters for the UK Government, not the Welsh Government, and as a result of that, I believe that we respect devolution and can expect respect for devolution back when we respect the boundaries of our legislative competence and the competence of the Welsh Government's position as well.”

Mr Millar highlighted that his party has continuously argued against the development of “mini embassies” and “overseas offices”.

The Conservative leader did clarify however that he is not “anti-international aid”, and noted the “generous” nature of the people of Wales.

But he added: “I do not believe that when people are dying waiting for ambulances, when we’re at the bottom of the educational tree as far as the league table of the United Kingdom is concerned, and when our road infrastructure isn't working, our transport infrastructure is creaking, that it's right to spend those millions of pounds on those things, when the Welsh Government should be focused on the things for which it is responsible.”

Taking an intervention from Labour’s Huw Thomas, Mr Millar was questioned on whether he recognises that the majority of international spending is on economic development for Wales.

Mr Millar once again referred to the role of the UK Government, noting that it is their responsibility to bring inward investment to the UK as a whole.

He said: “We will always want to be an internationalist country, looking out and seeking to influence the world, but we do that as part of the United Kingdom, an integral part of the United Kingdom.

“And I'm proud to be a member not only of the Welsh Conservative Party, but of the Conservative and Unionist Party, and I believe in the union of the United Kingdom, and that these foreign relationships and international development are done better as a United Kingdom as a whole.”

“Simplistic outlook”

Plaid Cymru’s Gwyn Williams shared a notably different perspective to that of his Conservative and Reform colleagues.

Prior to being elected to the Senedd, Dr Williams was a consultant ophthalmologist specialising in retina care at Swansea Bay University Health Board.

Speaking as someone who has worked within the Welsh NHS Dr Williams said: “Wales has long been a country that looks beyond our own horizons, looking to make a difference in the world and help where we can, but also we rely on help coming in to us as well.

“Many, many healthcare workers, of course, come from abroad, especially here in Wales, and every hospital in the country would crumble if all the international workers went home.”

He continued: “In Singleton Hospital in Swansea, in the eye department, I am the only Welsh-speaking, Welsh-origin consultant there, and much as I like to convince myself that I can do the work of ten people, I cannot, especially now because I am here.

“Chronic shortages in these sectors increase hospital discharge delays, reduce bed availability and create bottlenecks across the healthcare system.

“At a time when the NHS is struggling, we need the support from abroad as well, though we also, of course, need to grow our own ability.”

Concluding his statement Dr Williams said: “This whole debate tries to position international investment and domestic investment as a zero-sum game. It isn't.

“Looking outwards does not come at the expense of looking inwards. I suggest that such a simplistic outlook condescends to the people of Wales and stymies science.”

“Internationalist not isolationist”

The cabinet minister for government effectiveness, Dafydd Trystan Davies, called for reflection on the tone of the debate, suggesting that the “standard of this debate [had] descended to the level of a public house, not of a national Senedd”.

He said: “My friend the leader of the Welsh Conservatives made a speech, and I disagree with more or less all of it, and yet it was conducted properly and in line with the standing orders and the procedures of this Senedd.

“I think we should all take our duties properly as parliamentarians, whatever views we agree or disagree on.”

Dr Trystan Davies highlighted that international spending makes up just 0.03% of the Welsh Government’s overall budget, which he described as a “small contribution” to “building our prosperity, protecting our public services, strengthening our culture, and promoting our values”.

He said: “Our international work turns that belief into action, creating jobs and investment, exports and partnerships, life-changing experiences for students, new colleagues for our NHS and enabling communities in Wales and beyond to learn from one another.

“When Wales works internationally, Welsh people benefit. Our businesses reach new markets, universities build global partnerships, young people return home with skills and confidence, and Wales's reputation grows.

“We should be proud of that, not in a narrow way, not with our backs turned to others, but proud to be generous and outward-looking, proud to share, proud to learn - internationalist, not isolationist.”

The motion to end all Welsh Government international spending, tabled in the name of Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni’s Reform MS Llŷr Powell, was rejected by the Senedd with 37 members for and 48 against.

The Siambr then agreed Plaid Cymru minister Heledd Fychan’s amendment, which proposed the Senedd “regrets Reform UK's isolationist approach to Wales's place in the world” and “celebrates Wales' reputation as an internationalist, tolerant and outward-looking nation open for business, which is enhanced by its international engagement, including spending.”

The amended motion was agreed with 48 in favour and 37 against.